Curse

Linkusmax · Jun 13, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

No, I'm saying that they should use an inferior control system because it sells games. You want to market a competitive game to people, you use the controls they're used to. Small improvements in latency aren't enough of a reason to abandon the standard. You use WASD, everyone is negatively impacted equally.

ANet's not trying to build the perfect game. They're trying to sell as many games as possible. Best recipe? Find a dimension you can differentiate on. Valve did it with AI and storyline. GW did it by creating a deep skill set and limiting the skills you could bring to the party, creating multi-layered strategy.

Click-to-move isn't a revolutionary new control scheme that's going to sell games. So why make it harder for your potential customers to pick up your game by implementing unfamiliar controls?

Actually small differences in latency can become incredibly important, Especially for players like me in places like Australia. With such a high base level of latency due to distance from the servers the removal of CTM would effectively remove my ability to play competitively in a game where positioning is important at all (This is one of the things which I think made PvP around the time of prophecies and Factions so great and the time of Blockway and sitting around on the flagstand so poor). So no, not everyone is impacted equally.

As for your position on the inclusion of both CTM and WASD making the game harder to pick up I am going to have to disagree, the initial introduction to the game gives players both options, that's the important part for any player getting drawn into the game. Learning to use CTM is generally a rather natural process as they move up the ability level scale. At least when the game was new. I have taken large breaks from the game and had no trouble picking CTM back up because it is present in plenty of other games (I would include FPS games in this as well because the bit which uses the mouse [i.e. aiming] is actually more analogous to movement in GW than the movement in the game is.)

Why make it harder for you customers by forcing them to use one or the other at all when both could be available?

1337 H4X · Jun 13, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I just use autorun (R) so no real problems here

Fitz Rinley · Jun 13, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

1) Only PvP-ers will care about the controls, because it's a non-issue in PvE.

It may be a non-issue to PvE players who are primarily PvP oriented and used to certain other games. However, I know several handicapped players for whom WASD means they will be excluded from play.

Further, the poor alignment of tiles/objects in the game(s) often means that you will get caught or stuck on or in an object. I have had to bleed out and be rebirthed out of the stairs leading to the first two bosses in Abaddon's Mouth for this reason. With Click to move, and especially before body blocking was implemented in an ill-conceived and poorly planned way, one could click to move to get out of these spaces instead of having to log out and back in - losing all effort to that point. Does this happen daily? No, but it does happen.

Also, I will not play a game based in WASD nor would I ever consider bringing such a game up for anyone to play who asked me about it. All PvE games I have played over the last 30 to 35 years have been click to move without exception.

Quote:

Click-to-move offers some small advantages in managing latency.

Small advantages matter, especially in a competitive listing. That is why serious competitors want the best internet connections and highest end gaming computers. When I first started GW the only available connections here were dial-up, meaning: by the time I could load in my party was completely wiped and the enemy team waiting at my position to kill me in the LZ. Now I am on highspeed DSL, I still have found no reason to PvP as a way of life. However, I have been there enough to know that any and every advantage is desirable when working in a hostile environment. (This does not only apply to gaming.)

Quote:

3) Small differences matter in high-level play.

They also matter in casual play. What may seem small or insignificant to someone who has no other interest is important to people who want to sit down and enjoy being successful at a romp through the bloodshed and then go back to cleaning the toilet and double bagging the diapers. Smooth play is smooth play and those who are not particularly interested in hourly runs at the Hall of Heroes are just as interested in less rubber-banding, less glitching, less sticking, and a time spent being successfully entertained achieving their escapist goals to counter a bad day. The last thing you want after getting chewed out by the boss, coming home to fight with your spouse, and your kid refusing to be poddy trained - is to have a computer game you do for entertainment screw with you in those subtle little differences that Do matter.

Quote:

4) The majority of the potential PvP player base switches to/from WASD when joining/leaving GW.

Collecting in groups to shout-chat the lack of heterosexual parentage and amass heaping pejorative references upon one another hardly requires WASD. For 4 years that has appeared to be the principle purpose of PvP play, and the programming for click to move will not hamper this in the slightest.

Quote:

5) It's costly to switch from WASD to click-to-move.

The only difference in cost would be if there was no previously existing code to transfer or update. While they may be working on a different engine, the basics of avatar movement will still include X+1/Y+1 if N. The location of input devices is only a matter of defining N. The cost at this point is only the man hours in making sure that the converted or applied code is not now messed up by some added code. Since most codes dealing with something as simple as moving a cursor/avatar exist as sub-routines in library/resources for the Dev's to slap into place. A bottom line for production argument lacks merit concerning how they will move.

Further, GW2 is supposed to have more 3D oriented movement. Currently GW only moves in what is relatively 2D with arcs being used to grant the illusion of going up a curved road, etc. The physical article I have references expectable options to swim and to jump/climb. This changes the dynamic from an "X+1/Y+1 if N" to "X+1/Y+1/Z+1 if N" Using WASD there is no coverage for the Zenith and the Nadir, only the basic four directions. If they effect that changes discussed in what I have in print then there will need to be a 6-way motion system. The Qwerty Keyboard is poorly designed to manage this, while click to move is efficient at granting the computer 2 points between which to plot a course of action in 3D. WASD the computer plots without consideration of an endpoint (plots a ray rather than a line) and would therefore need 18 key locations (6 for QWEASD, 6 for QWEASD+up, and 6 for QWEASD+down). This is not available, while click to move handles it by having the computer plot a line or curve.

refer · Jun 13, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Maybe they intended for everybody to not click to move but now since everybody does away it goes.

BLOODGOAT · Jun 14, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Everybody just needs to develop uber-micro.

Cuilan · Jun 14, 2009, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I kinda don't like this, since I use both. Click and keyboard.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 14, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Um, no click to move is a huge mistake. I don't even use the keyboard for combat! I only use the mouse. I can move, activate skills and switch weapons, all with the mouse. If GW2 doesn't give me the option to use the mouse, then there is a very good chance I will skip it.

I hate using a keyboard for gaming. I'm a console gamer at heart, gimme a controller and I will succeed, If I can't have a controller, gimme a mouse. But forcing me to use the keyboard to move is weak!

I hated unreal tournament because of that very same reason. Even though I could hold the roll wheel to move forward it still sucked!

Come to think of it, I don't think I play a single pc game that doesn't let me move with the mouse! I use auto run sometimes, but as I said, I do not like using a keyboard to play. Mostly because my computer desk is janko and I have to lean forward to use my keyboard and mouse at the same time.

Gw2 better give me the option to move with the mouse. If it doesn't then its going in the wrong direction.

Friggin lame.

StormX · Jun 14, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I use both systems at the same time. One hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse. I don't see what the problem is. If it ain't broken why fix it?

I didn't understand Martin's argument either...too convoluted. But anyway, I'm much too used to using a mouse for movement. A remnant from my D2 days probably. Sometimes I'll use wasd if I need to strafe in pvp but that's about it. I hate it when I can't just click on a point on the ground to get to it, like in the rollerbeetle arena where there's only wasd and you have to keep holding down W in order to move.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 14, 2009, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

I use both systems at the same time. One hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse. I don't see what the problem is. If it ain't broken why fix it?

I didn't understand Martin's argument either...too convoluted. But anyway, I'm much too used to using a mouse for movement. A remnant from my D2 days probably. Sometimes I'll use wasd if I need to strafe in pvp but that's about it. I hate it when I can't just click on a point on the ground to get to it, like in the rollerbeetle arena where there's only wasd and you have to keep holding down W in order to move.

Did you hear the news? Anets desiging a Television set that has no remote, if you want to change the channel or adjust the volume, you have to get up and do it manually.

No but seriously, thats what they seem to be doing with the movement in gw2.

-And I repeat! Friggin lame.

Savio · Jun 14, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Since when was it announced that GW2 wouldn't have a click-to-move system?

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 14, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Since when was it announced that GW2 wouldn't have a click-to-move system?

I pray it hasn't and this is all just a successful attempt at attention whoring. I really do. I thought it had due to the massive amounts of people saying it has. Now I feel like a people, and people are stupid.

/facepalm.

Aljasha · Jun 14, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Controls

The control system is going to be significantly changed (in particular mouse movement in the form "click to move" will be removed from the game), however target locking will still function. Guild Wars 2 will introduce a Z-axis to the game which will allow characters to jump over obstacles. Actions which have characters interacting with the environment, such as sliding and swimming will also be introduced.

from the official wiki

of course, they could have made up their mind by then.

Savio · Jun 14, 2009, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

from the official wiki

of course, they could have made up their mind by then.

And where does the information in the wiki come from?

arcanemacabre · Jun 14, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

And where does the information in the wiki come from?

It was from the original PC Gamer article. Here is the post by Inde about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde from that thread

'Click to move' will be abandoned in favor of a more freedom-rich control scheme, including 'jumping, swimming, and sliding'

Konig Des Todes · Jun 14, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I use a combo of wasd keys and mouse, though the mouse is more for non-combat play (i.e., in town clicking NPCs). Only real mouse use, aside from interface, is clicking the skills 5-8 because I'm too lazy to stretch my fingers half the time. :P

As such, I don't mind this change, and have nothing more to say on it.

headlesshobbs · Jun 14, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

For the past 4 years I've been a study user of both WASD and point & click movement. While I've been more attuned to the kb lately, there's just a couple of things that it doesn't quite do so well and latency is the biggest problem.

As I believe having a mouse input for movement is direct, as this avoids the timing issue and is quite essential in combat that involves avoidable projectiles. With WASD, you lose that advantage as if your keystrokes are behind by whatever your current ping is telling you. Without mouse being key to movement, you have none of this and are subject to what your opponent is hitting you with regardless of your connection.

Brawn Over Brains · Jun 14, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Hmm..
Stupid idea being presented over free-to-edit 'facts.'

I'd like some evidence supporting this clearly retarded decision.

HawkofStorms · Jun 14, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

If you just read 3 posts up Brawn over Brains, you'll see that this was in the official PC Gamer article months ago.

As I already said, I find it hilarious people moan about not having any GW2 info, when they aren't even aware of the few verified things that have been mentioned.

Brett Kuntz · Jun 14, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

WASD only makes sense if you're playing a shooter (camera locked to mouse). In any RPG WASD is a joke for movement. Developers think if they force WASD movement in their RPG game it will magically make the game have more of an action feel to it. Every pro GW player C2M'd for a reason, and that reason wasn't just because of rubber banding. C2M is instant, you instantly change directions, there is no turning, no movement penalty like with WASD, you instantly move. With 5+ clicks per second you have a superior advantage over a WASD user. And WASD has movement penalties for moving backwards. You have two hands and you should be balancing the work load between them. Your left hand shouldn't be doing all the work. With WASD the only job your right hand has is moving the camera...

HawkofStorms · Jun 14, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

And as I already pointed out Kuntz, its stupid to assume GW2 will be the same as GW1.
Even if they did have click to move, they could easily add a "maximum turning speed" that's the same as the speed characters turn using WASD so that characters behave more like a boat or car, essentially eliminating the advantage provided by C2M.
In a game that will have jumping, swimming, mounts and maybe even other stuff (crouching, rolling) C2M will be worse.